Lucas Gerler, Managing Director at X Social Media AND Founder & Creative Director at LiquidGold Consulting, his passion lies in helping people and companies thrive -Not just stay alive.
Ecosystem that we have now. Um, but it's something that, what we've found in that you kind of mentioned it to them. When you have fines, when you do give advice to them and deliver them results. A lot of times they ask me to do other things. What we've not done is gone outside of our expertise. And instead we partnered with other people on the front end and the backend of that ecosystem that helps our clients to stay in your advertising. And what we've found is that by focusing truly on the metric, like the metrics that really really matter. So for us, it's like the actual costs that they're putting in and then the cost or the settlements that they're getting back as well, buying tuning, and dialing everything we do on set there. And then like you kind of alluded to, is one piece of that is that attorneys are the same as that. We build something [inaudible]
Listening to the rich and poor ed podcast, where we break down the financial principles that rich advertisers are deploying today to turn advertising into profit and get tons of traffic to their websites without killing their cash. These advertisers agencies, affiliates brands are responsible for managing over a billion dollars a year in ad spend. You'll hear about what's working for them today. They're rich ads and we'll roast their Epic failures and crappy ads on the internet with poor ads. Let's get into it. Welcome to another episode of the rich dad. Poor dad podcast is your host, Zack Johnson, and I'm with Mr. Dylan Carpenter. Are you ready to talk about some personal injury ads, Dylan? Oh man. Yeah. With how much they spend a year? Is it going to open up the door to the Legion? I'm pumped for it, man? Yes. So today's guest is a legend in the world of personal injury and mass torts specifically.
He's a managing director at X social media, which manages upwards of $50 million a year in advertising for some of the biggest names in personal injury and mass torts. And, uh, I might have to take a shower after this one because I just get the UE is going to talk about personal injury are illegal, not, not with today's guest, cause he's really more of a marketer at heart. And so we're like one degree away from the attorneys, which is the only way I would be able to do this, this, um, uh, Inc 500, um, uh, warranty. And uh, just overall super creative guy. We're going to dive in deep on how to scale and, and think about creative ways to fund our ad spend. So without further ado, Luke is Gerler how you doing welcome to the show.
Exactly. She felt the same exact way about personal injury attorneys before. But the reason that I do what I do is not for necessarily that client, but who I think
Of is my client. Just the people that we help attorneys have their name and they can defend their own thing. But for us, we do everything for helping people. And then today we, uh, we actually track everything since 2015 91,000 people is who we helped.
That's awesome, man. Well, congrats. So for those people that, that might not be as well dialed into the world of mass torts and personal injury, give everybody a little bit of overview of X social media.
Yeah, absolutely. So, um, I guess I'll do the first part in the next social that like when it comes to just, you know, injuries, um, there's different types of injuries out there there's ones that are some same from other people, um, which is definitely like the personal injury side of things. A lot of times is defending like a person from getting hit from a car from another person or something like that. And then more of what we do is in mass sports, which is defending people from corporations and organizations and people that are bad actors and then industry, or that put out some product that kills names or hurt somebody. Right? So it could be something as simple as a Zantac that was taken for looking at like three, four years later, they find out that it causes, you know, 12 different types of cancers or can be close to it. Um, you know, or it can be, Hey, something that, uh, people know about because the media is the media, they see all these other different things, but don't realize the reason that they got sick wasn't because of COVID or a flu that was coming around because they hate some onions that had some Nella that they go out from your store,
Some of the classics, some of those that don't know mass torts, right. Like you did. Um, Zantacs a great example. Monsanto's Roundup is a great example. The new one is Juul cigarettes. Um, what's like the one that like everybody would, uh, would recognize, um,
You don't want this right now and be talcum powder, talcum powder in Johnson and Johnson is paid a hundred million dollars to a thousand people. They actually ovarian cancer. Wow. Yeah.
All right. All right. So what I want to talk about specifically is, you know, normally on this show look, cause we talk about like a rich yeah. We talk about a poor ad and we can talk about like, what works right now in mass torts. Didn't have you guys give away our secrets, but what I think I've enjoyed the most in our conversations is just creative ways to think about, uh, funding ads, but also really how to level up the agency game. Right. And I think a lot of media buyers agencies kind of get stuck on, on one-on-one type type client relationships and the client pays the ads and, and they, you know, they, they get paid the retainer. Uh, but you guys have things like super dialed over there and, and on your model. And then, um, and it would be cool to, to dive in about like, uh, maybe just give everybody like a little bit of overview of how you guys structure things and then let's dive into, um, funding, uh, part two.
Yeah. And so I think it just makes sense to talk about like how we got here. So it's only something that, you know, over the years we started in 2015 that we've kind of built to this, uh, like ecosystem that we have now. Um, but it's something that, what we've found in that you kind of mentioned, you know, when you have clients, when you do good by them and deliver the results. A lot of times they ask me to do other things, what we've not done is gone outside of our expertise. And instead we partnered with other people on the front end and the backend of that ecosystem that helps our clients to sustain their advertising. And what we found is that I spoke to seem truly on the medic, like the metrics that really really matter. So for us, it's like the actual costs that they're putting in and then the costs or the settlements that they're getting back as well and fine tuning and dialing everything that we do and sit there.
And then like you kind of alluded to is, uh, one piece of that is that attorneys are the same as every business. If they have to put help money to make money, a lot of times they have to go to some sort of a vendor or something like that. And so that step is also something that we've solved in a couple of different solutions. And I think that, yeah, that's what keeps our revenues, where they are, is by making sure that our clients have the funds to spend and that they're spending on the right things. And then we have insight into what they're getting the funds back so that our conversations are really easy. It's all data-driven and it's not, well, we think this, or we can that
Yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay. So here's, here's what I want to talk about. I want to talk about, you know, we, we've had a chance to think about, um, different ways to fund and obviously there's, there's a lot of interesting nuances, but you shot me this message like two, two months ago. And it just like totally threw my mind for a loop. And I finally, after processing it for actually three months, uh, I now have enough, um, clarity on questions of how I want to dive into this. All right. So I want to hear like, kind of the backstory of like, where did this idea come from in terms of like how you guys are thinking about, um, this may actually may, before I even do that, like how would you lay out the groundwork of what you guys are trying to put together here for the next year?
Yeah. So I think that the easiest way to think about it is kind of look at the way that we currently work with our clients. We're working with them on a one by one basis where we're running a campaign, but it's specifically their campaign, but there's a lot of overlap between the clients where a hundred clients might be running the same campaign. And there might be an overlap of 50 clients that are running the same work campaigns for 10 campaigns. Right. And so what we found is that if it would be better at scale, right, to go after those four 10 or whatever it is, projects and put things together or have that campaign together. So it's learning at the same time and it's not separate and pains, if you will. That that is ideal for performance. So going back to our concern for performance, we found that this was a way to best control, cost and scale.
And then the next step was then, okay, now how do we present that? And the big thing for us is the data where we can say these opportunities over the last 12 months based off of our data, almost just like the stock market would have, you know, a chart that you would look at. We can go to funding mechanisms, like many companies that are then partnered with a group of attorneys and put together that package that funds let's say 10 different torts or 10 different case types or campaigns for the clients going to group of clients. And does, so we're guarantees that let's say that package is, you know, 10 million or something like that. And so that's where we found that it's, you know, a way to guarantee almost, you know, next year spend, if you will. And we've had some success, a couple of different clients and groups that we put together.
Yeah. So talk to me about like this idea of organizing like blocks and contracts. Like, I feel like you, you've got some crazy connections, um, you know, and you talk to some, some, some crazy folks up in, uh, up in wall street and came back with this, this idea. So walk us through like, what that would add that model would actually look like.
Yeah. I mean, it's, it's not too unlike other investments. Right. Um, and if you think of like earlier, we mentioned a thousand people that, uh, filed a claim against Johnson Johnson for talcum powder, right. As an example, to find those people that took in an advertiser like us or somebody to get that word out first. Right. Um, so it's really just, when you look at a risk reward, it's just a different option that only certain people can partake in. Right. And so it's something that really right now that opportunity is kind of limited to attorneys, but I could think of other options where you could present a lender or a bank and group of investors that would otherwise invest in wall street. And let's say to expect a 10% average return over the year, an opportunity that would give them in this case. I don't know, let's say that those people would cost $5,000 going to cost thousand dollars in about 10 to one return.
Right. Um, so it's just really just a different investment. And then it's finding the sources of the lending money in whatever industry that you're working in. And this case there just so happens to be a smooth of them and a handful to choose from because it's something that's common. Um, even for like a, a person, if I was hurt in an accident, maybe I didn't want to wait for my attorney to settle a claim. There's a thing called, like pre-sale funding that exists where I could still get, let's say $10,000 with the attorney. You can hedge on the fact that that'd be worth 15,000 different vehicles, right? So you always have to think of vehicles. Advertising is really those, a vehicle that people can invest in the same way that a, a mortgage is the vehicle that allows banks to get all our money.
So let's, let's break this down for a second. So the vehicle is a block of, of contract or, or set of blocks of contracts and the, whatever the return is on those parts of countries. We'll get to those in a second, but like, how would you, it's not a fund, right? It's not a debt, it's not a equity. Um, like walk us through how you landed on like this block of con tracks, like use case. Cause it's like very unique.
Yeah. It'd just be like, uh, diversifying your portfolio. This is what you would be looking at. So if you were going to invest in the stock market, you wouldn't maybe invest all of your money into Tesla and Apple, but you might put some of it in there. Right. But it'd be smart to diversify. It. That's exactly what we're doing here. We're just building a portfolio that makes sense to kind of hedge his bets and maybe has some high-risk things. Then I've had some low-risk things and it has some things that'll sell us in. There has some things that'll settle later and it's just, um, you know, kind of understanding your industry and understanding where things were at, you know, what our numbers are showing and when things are going to come in, or when settlement start coming in with the values, are that really kind of determines all of that.
So let's say, let's say I've got a million dollars and I want to buy a block contracts, um, with, uh, an invest in this, this, um, or Roundup. Right. Every, everyone I was going to say talk about it, but like every understands Roundup. So let's, and, um, and so do you, are you, do you kind of break that out for the contract and the performance and the average, like return on ad spend for Roundup or is it kind of broader, um, than that?
Um, so it'd be broader than that. It would be more likely that the person that said that they wanted to bring a million and for Roundup, um, that they would bring a million for Roundup into a, let's say, you know, conglomerate that had a Roundup and for other things, and that, that would be spread amongst there and they would get the percentage of the Roundup investment that they brought in. Right.
Got it. Got it. I think I got it. I think I'm good.
It's all, it's all, it's like, it's the same way that it was like, um, if I had to go get alone, right. If I bring something to the table, any equity or any payments or anything that like, uh, like a down payment or anything like that, I might get like better rates and things like that. And so here, you know, it's like the more that I bring to the table, right. Initially there might be other things that I get, but definitely it would be something that, because it's a portfolio, it's more of your stuff is going into that portfolio. And then you get a percentage where that, that risk then is minimized, where if let's say that portfolio, just to make it easy of that million was a hundred million and you put that 1 million, then you're not getting just what was, you know, a 10, a hundred million equaled out of that.
Okay. Got it. So really let's zoom out again and I hope the listeners are, are following us here, but, uh, let's say it's a million dollars of, and I'm investing in the category of mass torts managed by X social media as the quote unquote like portfolio manager or the hedge fund manager, if you will. And I don't care so much, like, I guess I'm a personal injury attorney. I do mass torts. Um, I've got a ton of extra cash. I, I, I may obviously be spending a lot on ads myself, but I'm also looking for investments. And so like, I'm going to go invest a million dollars and buy a block of contracts. What, what do I, or like, what are you guys thinking in terms of like, what would I get in terms of investment? Is that like paid out like an annuity? Is that like a fixed time period? Is it like an interest? Like what is the actual,
Yeah, so this is where it, this comes down to the way that it currently is where the attorneys don't make any money. So everything's coming out of their pocket until a case sets, right. Where they sell their cases. And a lot of times they have to hold their cases together. And then I can settle like specifically with Roundup. Like I could take my 10,000 cases. I could settle that with Monsanto or Bayer directly. Right. Or sometimes they have to go through certain like, uh, pass to do so. Um, but it is something that, you know, I think that, like you touched on like PI attorneys, the way that we're structuring it, it's like somebody doesn't have to necessarily practice mass torts, but they'd be able to invest in this, spread out their risk. And then the payment would come for them on their investment that may like structured payment or anything like that. Or they could take their
Structure payment, but it'd be more so paid whenever the case is or case that is part of that portfolio settles. So they could get, let's say portfolio one year and then the next year, it could be a different case. And that could be a half of it the next year for a different case. You know what I'm saying over time. So it's really, you're not actually selling a block of, of, uh, of ads here. I mean, the, the funds are being used to generate cases. So let's just like remove ads temporarily from the conversation on it's like click out, minimize that window. And, uh, now we're just talking about, I'm investing a million dollars because I love mass torts. I'm not, I'm not a personal injury attorney and nor could I like even try and do that if I, I wanted to. Uh, but I love the, the, the return that, that those campaigns and those businesses get, I want to invest a million dollars to make and manage by X social media and the, what I'm essentially buying is X amount of cases that are generated from that million dollars.
And the return is whenever that, uh, those cases close and there's a past, so it's a fairly long, right? Like in some of these cases, this, yeah. This could be a couple of years, just the same way that the industry is used to. Um, and, uh, and so as I like bring, like, now I'm like gonna zoom back in on, on the details on for a second. Like if I have a million dollars, like, how do I know, like how many cases is that going to get? And like, do you guys just kind of keep that open-ended or just like, Hey, you're going to invest in X amount. And here's what our numbers are, you know, the ROAS in the past, like, because like in a debt, like let's just kind of break down other investment vehicles,
Speaker 4 (19:44):
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Check it firstname.lastname@example.org. Obviously with debt, you're going to get a monthly coupon or a dividend. You're gonna get a monthly dividend with equity. You know, people do this and like in, um, real estate funds are gonna throw in a portfolio. And then, you know, like there's this block of contracts that is very interesting that you've, you've innovated on. And I think you're going to be, I think it was like one of the smartest moves that I've seen anybody do and the world of, um, uh, finance and advertising outside of myself. No, I'm just kidding. So, yeah. Anyways, um, help, help, help show me the promise. Like, what am I like? Did I fully like summarize? Um, what, like, what am I buying into is like, as a certain amount of the blocks are just kind of representative of that.
Yeah. It's I mean, it's, um, it's an assumptive right now. Let's say that, like we know right now, this is what the numbers are. And we assume that based off of past campaigns that were of a similar nature that, you know, costs would go up 20% as it leads towards some dates or something like that. We'll basically just predict out what the cost will be. Um, but there's not really necessarily guarantees. Right. Um, right. So, you know, we are attached to it. And so that will be part of it. Um, I know you kind of touched on that a little bit, but it's like part of it where we do attach the ads is it's like literally written into whatever funding mechanism, that language of that funding mechanism, where they have to deploy, um, set assets through the vehicles that are, that are named on the, um, contracts. Right. So that's how we're guaranteeing that we, you know, generate a piece of that for ourselves. Um, but otherwise it's, you know, nothing guaranteed for them, but it's diversifying their risk. And then a lot of times removing, um, their need to necessarily be as involved or helping with, you know, instead of them having to put the 10 different puzzle pieces together themselves, it's just one piece that they do for 10 different things. Whereas within a hundred pieces, that's, they're getting better.
Yeah. I feel like this is like one step away from becoming like a, uh, a blockchain conversation and tokenizing
It's already been, it's already been talked about. And then it is something that, um, you know, there's talk about, let's say like a case exchange, if you will, right. Where you can say, you know, I've got this block of a hundred cases and then, uh, let somebody bid on it and buy 20 of them or buy all a hundred of them. And then there's definitely companies out there that sell cases and things like that. Um, but not necessarily a central repository that would anonymously HIPAA compliant and everything, which, you know, the block does offer, uh, do that. So it's definitely something that, that is the way I think it could go. And then also like anonymizing, uh, data, things like that. And, you know, if this ever was something that was something that everybody could vest in or some of your things, um, you know, you would need something like that, uh, to hide some of the data.
What I love about this is that like, we, we, we make this comparison all the time on the show about how, you know, paid advertising is, you know, it was like wall street and investing where you're getting like a return on your investment every single day, every single month, um, and year. But, uh, we say that all the time, but yet everyone is still in the agency business and then the client business. And with this way that you're with this structure that you're exploring, it has the potential to take X social media and turn it into a hedge fund and be completely almost, and maybe even exclusively a financial product. Um, and, or, or maybe it's a spin out. Like, I don't know, but like, I, I feel like this is the, the, um, it's early days to see kind of how it all shapes out for you guys, but like, how do you, how do you see that playing out? Yeah. I mean, it definitely, it,
I was as to travel further down a different direction than otherwise we've, um, you know, possibly been shut out of, um, and then there's other rules and things like that that are happening in the nation that, um, would also, uh, further our reach into the industry. Um, but it is definitely something that, you know, we're excited about. And we do think that it'll also at the core, uh, going back to the first thing that I said on the, um, conversation, if we can help more people, is we can advertise to touch more people, to let more people know that this happened, or that happened. That's really at the core of what we're going for and that's what this would allow. So we're all for that. And if we can also make some profit off it at the same time, as well as create a business around it, um, that seems like a win-win for everybody.
Oh my gosh, I love it. Or whatever. We're going to have you back on the show where we follow the normal format of the show. I was just like the most like selfish host, uh, today. And because I wanted to dive into this East case, I, if you're listening to this send, uh, send, send myself and Lucas a message saying that you, you were able to somewhat follow what we're talking about today. Uh, but this is, this is like, you know, there's like, there's a lot of things that you have to get, you have to get to and organize to able to play here, right? Like one of the things that you guys have done is you've productize your entire offering. You're managing the ads and your own ad account. The clients are paying you and you're generating leads, you know, for the, for the client.
And you have an entire vertical, um, in play in, you know, in, in a, in a massive arena. Right. I, I feel like this there's a ton of other lead gen media buyers, lead gen agencies that are maybe doing like really well and insurance, or maybe doing really well lead gen. And, um, you know, you name like, uh, you know, two dozen other verticals where this is a playbook, um, where they could potentially sell investments to ultimately fund that ad spend and, um, and go from slopping and selling leads and, and ACEs and clients and clicks, um, to really selling an overall investment. Right. Which is just like totally awesome. And, uh, and so, yeah, just hats off to you, man, for, um, you know, just like going down the rabbit hole to, to kind of at least figure out a potential solution. And it'll be exciting to see how this all plays out for you guys. Um,
Well, the other thing is the last thing I'll say is that you touched on insurance, which is ironic because that's one of the next verticals that we're ready to knock down. So yeah, I'd probably do the same thing to that.
I thought you were going to sell insurance on your investment, um, to your own. Uh
[inaudible] right. Well, the first,
The first conversation, um, in this, you know, the first conversation I had when I first started exploring how to fund people's ad spend and add capital and fund my ads was with, um, this guy, uh, that was, um, I got connected to black stout and they kicked me out with this guy that was in the big, short, and Brian Gosling in the movie, um, plays the guy that writes the contract that allows investors to short the housing market. And basically this guy was like a one trick pony. I talked to him the very end he's like, yeah. So you could like probably make more money shorting people's ad spend, um, than actually like funding it. And he's like, you should do this.
I'm going to Charlotte. But, uh,
Oh yeah. When I think of that, and I think of when you're creating this investment vehicle that is encompassing, um, cases and media to then go acquire those cases with that is going to become this block and this financial instrument that's going to later on down
The line, I like there's going to be, um, opportunities to create even more financial products later to support that. I think insurance is like
Speaker 4 (29:53):
Crazy idea for something like that, of like, Hey, if you spend money on it,
Um, with X social media here is how much you can pay, um, to protect your, your, your losses there. That would be insane. I'm already thinking of ways to make it work. So,
Amazing Lucas. Um, we didn't even talk about how awesome you guys are at getting results for your, for your clients, but we'll definitely have you back on the show. We'll talk about that. Yeah. We're very transparent. All of our stuff is on our website. I show everybody exactly what I do. I show them what my costs are and what I spent, what the demographics were, um, got. So that's cool, man. Where can people go to learn more and get in touch? Um, I would say the easiest way is just visit our website X social media.com on there. They can go to the about us section and I believe they can even schedule a time with me. I have my Calendly up there as well as a lot of our team does. Um, and then otherwise, um, you know, uh, email@example.com, any questions I know that you said that angry, that understood everything that we talked about. I would love to hear from anybody, um, that did. Um, so that's the other way that you get ahold of me directly. Cool. Awesome.
Speaker 4 (31:08):
Thanks Lucas. Really appreciate it.
Awesome. Thank you guys.
Speaker 4 (31:16):
Thanks so much for listening to another episode of the rich ed or ed podcasts. If you're like me and listen to podcasts on the go, go ahead and subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, and rich ed [inaudible] dot com slash podcast. And if you absolutely love the show, go ahead and leave a review and a comment share with a friend. If you do take a copy screenshot of it, email me firstname.lastname@example.org. Show me you left a review. I'll give you a free copy of the rich add or add book. Learn more about the book. Go to rich ed for a.com to leave a review that a rich ed or at.com/review. Thanks again.
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Jason Hornung is the founder and Creative Director at JH Media LLC, the world’s #1 direct response advertising agency focusing exclusively on the Facebook ads platform. Jason’s proprietary methods for ad creation, audience selection and scaling are responsible for producing $20 million + of profitable sales for his clients EVERY YEAR