James Yun is an affiliate marketer who works within multiple networks. He spends $50k-$100k/day CRUSHING affiliate offers and scales them to the moon. We also have one of his affiliate managers at Digistore24 Iman to fill us in on all the hot affiliate topics.
All right, James. Here's what I really want to know. I really want to know how much are you spending on ads these days?
Oh, I mean, it fluctuates like my highest days I've spent like over 110 a day and right now it's, it's roughly around 50 K day closer to there.
Yeah, but that number is going to be much bigger soon. Small right now,
I think at your 50 to a hundred K a day, you're, you're definitely in the top. Uh, you're in the top five of the guests on the rich head for it and podcasts. Congrats.
Ah, thank you. This is just the beginning.
Okay. All right. We'll have you back next year. You're just crush everybody. I love it.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
On this episode of the rich add poor ed podcast, we have James Yan. James is an affiliate marketer who spends over 50 to a hundred thousand dollars in ad. Spend a day on this episode, James dives into how you can scale affiliate offers. And he also dives into the practical nitty gritty on split testing, the importance to data and why you need to be tracking everything in a spreadsheet. If you're in the affiliate world, buck love. Cause James is about to drop some bombs. So go ahead and sit back, relax and enjoy the show. But before we begin, go to funnel dash.com. If you are an agency owner or media buyer, to find out how you can scale your ads and get some cash back without further ado, here are your hosts, Zach Johnson and Dylan Carpenter. Welcome
To another episode of the rich and poor ed podcast is your host sack Johnson. I'm with Mr. Dylan Carpenter. Dylan. We're gonna talk about some affiliate marketing today.
Always man, we're in a little affiliate role. Let's get it going.
Um, yes, well today, uh, we're we're doing Digi week, man. It's all about Digi store 24, uh, this week and we have a co-host with us Amman who is the senior affiliate manager at Disney store and works with, uh, pretty much the biggest affiliates in the industry. Um, and it was per a mom's recommendation that we have on today's guest. So Amman, welcome to the rich and ed podcast. How you doing?
Good. How are you? It's good to be here with you guys.
Yes. So tell everybody a little bit about what you do and did you store and how you guys are crushing it over there?
Yeah, we are totally crushing it. Um, I am the senior affiliate manager, as you said. And I basically manage the top between Darcy and I, who was on the, um, episode probably to this was, um, Greg a hundred accounts when we started. So between us, we're doing a hundred to 120 managed affiliate accounts of people that make upwards of 250,000 or more a year. Um, we also manage affiliates that make $250,000 a day. So we are working with the top of the top, the creme de LA creme. And we are always plugging them in with the top hot converting offers and basically playing matchmaker between vendors and the affiliates on the network.
That is so cool. And you guys run a bi-weekly coffee and cash. I love that name by the way.
Yeah. Yeah. So Darcy and I, um, every other week, every other Thursday morning at 10:00 AM Pacific, we do a live webinar called coffee and cash. And by the name is you can tell, we get our coffee and we get online and talk about the top offers on Digi store that week, that month, um, we switch it up sometimes and have guest speakers from different, um, parts of the industry we've had, you know, copywriting experts, funnel hacking experts. I mean, you name it. So we just try to add value to anyone that's tuning into that.
Very cool. All right. So Amman, you want to introduce today's guest?
Yes. January is one of, one of my favorites. I have a lot of favorites, but I will say James in the top three for sure. Um, is such, I mean, just a genuine, obviously a superstar affiliate, but just an awesome person to work with in general. But I worked with James previously at a different network and about a year ago. And um, when I came over to Digi store, he kind of came over for a specific offer and he just blew it through the roof. I mean, it was an unbelievable to see him do that amount of volume in such a short amount of time. So he is just an awesome affiliate, awesome guy. And, uh, I, I love watching him grow and just continue to crush it.
That is amazing. Well, James, welcome to the show in.
Thank you guys. Pleasure to meet you guys and thank you for the amazing introduction in lawn. Very kind, very kind words.
Yeah. So James, how long have you been doing this?
Not too long. Around a year and a half now. That's like when I first started, so I actually did drop shipping a little while, like before the drop shipping, when I was in college, um, they they're on like 30 Ken revenue, but after that couldn't really find any winning products and didn't go too well after that. So I stopped digital marketing for a bit for maybe around the year. And then, um, I started taking a course on affiliate marketing from Chris and Andrew who run the Wi-Fi bosses and I started learning affiliate marketing from them. And then from there just everything took off super fast. Amazing.
Cool. So, uh, so give us a little insight, skip man. What's uh, w what's working for you these days? Tell us about your rich ed.
Yeah, so, well, I mean like one, one thing I would recommend for every advertiser to do is split testing. I mean, split testing is always going to be the most important thing. I literally split test everything that's talking about, the targeting creatives copies, Landers, you know, and just anything else you think might work. So I can't stress enough how important split testing is because I see so many young advertisers who try Facebook ads. And this was my issue too. When I first tried it around, um, is they try Facebook ads for a little bit and then they give up when they don't see results early on. Right. But then just remember that every $1 you spend on Facebook ads is data. And even if you're not getting that conversion that you want, and maybe your ROI isn't even one at zero, because you're not making any sales, but you're finding out what works, but also what doesn't work.
Right? So every time you spend money on Facebook, you're actually getting closer to your goal. So I tell people don't ever get discouraged. If your ads don't perform well, especially in the beginning, cause you haven't tested anything. You're just kind of throwing things against the wall, hoping that something sticker out, right? And so when you actually are spending money and things aren't working, you should be more excited because you are getting closer to you go every time. Right? So one little trick that I learned and I learned this actually from one of my friends recently and they also do affiliate marketing. Uh, so shout out to Mark Todd for teaching me this. He's also one of my close friends, but this is for people to try, or this is for people trying to make their split testing, operation more lean. Or if you're on a limited budget, this will help out a lot.
So one thing I've been doing is I launch engagement ads, uh, when I'm split testing my creatives and copies and then see which one gets the highest engagement, right? And engagement ads are really cheap. So you're going to get a lot more traffic. And which means if you're getting a lot more traffic, you're getting a lot more data. So the ad with the best engagement, 80 to 90% of the time will do well when you run conversion ads with them, right? So obviously it's not as good of a data point as if you were to straight just run conversion ads for on the creatives and copies and see split tests that way. But that was a lot more expensive when you do engage in that, since you get so much traffic at a cheap price, you can get the data you need at a fraction of the cost. And this is like 80 to 90% accurate. So you could save a ton, a ton of money, split testing with engagement ads, and then converting it to conversion ads. Once you find those winners. So that's like one thing that's been working extremely well for me for sprint.
I love it. What do you think done?
I like it. Do you use the same post IDs to kind of retain that social proof or you just kind of duplicate it to let it go from scratch since already kind of prove it? Yeah. Let it go from scratch. Cause especially if you retain the social proof, then that social proof can influence the, I guess, performance of those ads. So I want to do everything brand new with no social proof at all, because for engagement ads, I almost take a split testing costs as a loss. So actually set aside around 10% of my budget, uh, for split testing. And I'm always constantly split because especially if you're scaling at a high level, you're going to always need new creatives and copies, right? So, and then for early advertisers who were just coming into the game, that's one big issue that we I've seen. A lot of students have is they don't know how to split test properly.
And then even if they do it costs too much. And by the time they've spent a couple of thousand dollars on split testing, cause it generally costs that much to find winning products, right? Winning offers or winning creatives. They spent a couple of thousand, they don't have any more money and they can't even scale. So this is a very easy way to split test a lot of different creatives, a lot of different copies at a cheap price so that when you do find a winner, you actually have budget remaining. Then you can use to actually scale the ads. All
Right, James. Here's what? No, I really want to know how much you spend days.
I mean, it fluctuates like my highest states I've spent like over 110 a day and right now it's, it's roughly around 50 K day closer to their nice, yeah. That number's going to be much bigger, soon smaller,
I think at your 50 to a hundred K a day. You're, you're definitely in the top. Uh, you're in the, you're in the top five of the guests on the rich and poor and podcasts. Congrats.
Uh, thank you. This is just the beginning.
All right. Well let me just crush everybody
Question for you when it comes to the split testing side, since it's kind of a big point of the topic, if you just launched an offer, you know, maybe it's getting some traction. What are some of the first areas you start to split test? Is it the creatives, the audiences, the landing page, the back end. I'm kind of curious what your first areas of opportunity are. Once you start kind of seeing that data to kind of, you know, start testing some more. Yeah. So, so in terms of like the orders of what you should split test, um, I personally recommend joining a course, uh, just because generally courses will tell you which offers to promote and then you can kind of get a good feel of what the other students in the course are promoting. So you kind of know which ones do well, so you don't even need to spend money split testing the offers, right?
And then right now is medical metaphors. The top weight loss offer is doing super well. So if you already know that there's no really real need to split test because other, I guess, experience affiliates like me and so many other affiliates who are scaling big, have already split, tested different offers and determined that this one is the best one at the current time, right? So you can kind of follow the trend in that way, in terms of a new beginners success where they're going to have the most success is let testing the creatives and copies, right? Cause if you're creative and copy is strong, um, and then, then you're going to get a ton of clicks. Once you get a ton of clicks, I guess your landing page also needs to be pretty strong, but courses will also give you strong performing landing pages. That's why I recommend courses just because they give you such a strong base to start with so that you don't really need to split test the landing pages and offers.
That's really kind of taken care of for you. All you're really focusing on is split testing the creatives and copies. So that's where I would start, um, creatives and copies. And then they also give you lookalike lists, searching courses. So if you have lookalike list, the targeting is also taken care of for you. So all you really need to do. You don't even need to do targeting yet. You can do it when you want to scale more, right? You want to split test different audiences to scale, but in the beginning, or you need to worry about the creative and copy. Um, if you don't have the lookalike lists Landers, or even you don't even know what offer to promote, Ooh, that's kinda hard cause now you're gonna have to split test everything and that's gonna cost quite a bit of money. Um, yeah, that's definitely tough.
I didn't realize the networks essentially gave you the landing pages. That's, that's where, you know, at least the 10 blue for that, that's pretty snazzy there courses do that. Not necessarily the offers, but the courses will. That makes sense. So kind of just like a template, Hey, this has been proven across the line is, you know, plug and play kind of more or less. Yeah. And then landing pages are slightly more risky to split test as well. Um, just because Facebook kind of scans that a little bit more thoroughly. So if your landing pages, noncompliant cause a pretty high chance, you're going to get shut down and obviously you don't want that happening. Um, that's why I would stick to the landing pages. The courses generally recommend, and then try to optimize that landing page even more by like split testing the headlines because at least that landing page gets approved. It's pretty hard to find landing pages that get back. Especially if you're running affiliate offers on Facebook, everybody knows you're going to face. Shutdowns makes sense. So I got a million dollar question for you now. God it just slipped through my mind. All right. Gosh.
That's okay. It was kind of around the 50 K safe question though. It was a big one, to be honest, I'm trying to think of what it was, but oh, I know what it was. So we're talking about split testing audiences. Now with you spending, you know, 50 to a hundred K a day, I want to hear what are your most fruitful audiences? Because I do a lot of Facebook ads and man, I love the broad. And I imagine with that much money you're spending, you got a ton of data. So how broad are your audiences? You're kind of targeting there. Yeah. So lookalikes tend to do really well. Look likes are probably one of the best ways to scale just getting different lookalike audiences. Um, and then so targeting is also a big one. If you guys know what zero targeting is, that's just targeting nothing.
Right? And then you could talk your worldwide like that once your pixel has enough data. So first you want to start in the U S um, you want to target the U S and then I specifically target 40 to 65 year olds. Cause that's like, if you're in weight loss, you should probably target more like 40 to 65 olds. And then because my pixel is so strong, I don't even target anything. So I leave the detailed targeting area, just blank. And then my pixel has enough data to actually go find customers for me already at this point. Um, but if you're first starting, so that's like, what if you want, when you want to scale big. Right. So right since I'm spending that much, I want to do as broad as I can, even for the age range, I'll even go lower, like 25 to 65.
Sometimes if I feel like my creatives or copies or whatever it is getting tapped out quickly. Um, so yeah. Uh, oh yeah. And I mean, I love them and it really goes down to kind of what you mentioned earlier, you got to spend money to get that data. You got to create a test. Cause when it comes down to it, the algorithm is way smarter than any media buyer out there. So you really got to buy that data, man, that's really, it it's like, I think targeting is important, but it's also not as important as people think, because once you do gather enough data, your pixel is going to be able to find you purchasers almost no matter what ad you ran run, as long as they're creative and copy of strong, amen to that. Well, James, that's working good for you right now, but let's go ahead and get to the not so pretty side of things. So what is your poor ad? What's something you thought would kill it, that kind of crash and burn.
Yeah. Trying to think of this one. I couldn't really think of too many things. I mean, I basically split test anything that will work and actually most things I test actually don't do well, you know, and I kind of expect that to happen. Like if I get an idea, I just split test it. Um, but I do have like a slightly embarrassing story earlier in my career. No. So basically when I'm running ads, first thing I wake up and depending on the ad performance, I would kill ads that aren't doing well. Right. Meaning I turned them off and then I usually turn them back on at 12:00 AM because they tend to re optimize at 12:00 AM at night. So that the following day, maybe they will perform well, even if they didn't do well, uh, the previous day. So one time I turned them back on around 11:00 PM thinking that the budget of the ad would pace evenly.
Right. But then instead it spending tire budgets on the ad sets in less than an hour by the end of the day. So when I turned them all back on at 11:00 PM by 12:00 AM, within an hour, I'd spent my entire budget. So I ended up losing, I think it was like three to five K in an hour. And at that time that was a ton. And obviously it's optimized horribly because Facebook is just trying to spend your money and they're just sending it out to anyone. Right. And I got like five purchases from like five K ad spend. So I was stressed back then, because back then, fine. Yeah. I mean, Facebook just can't pace that budget I've had that happen so many times, man. I got scarred from that point. I always make sure I turn on my ads after 12, 12 0 1 so that they never happens again.
Yeah. Something you can even do to combat that. I still do this to this day. Cause I mean, at that spin level, I mean I reset everything daily campaigns, audiences, creatives, but you can always use automated roles. I have some of those set up in some of my accounts that automatically pause, you know, at six or 7:00 AM of performances down, same at 12 or 6:00 PM. And then they're automatically restart, you know, at the ad level or ad set level the following day as well, basically. So that way you can kind of put on a little bit more on autopilot because yeah. That stuff still typically works. But yeah, if you get caught up at 10 or 11:00 PM and Facebook's messing up, that'll, it'll, they'll churn through all that budget quick. Yeah. I mean, that's one thing I have to get into because I'm managing a lot of accounts and rules and ads would make my life a lot easier, but I've just done everything manual since the beginning. But yeah, I'm starting to look into the rules. I need to get into that. Cause there's, there's definitely a couple of times when I don't kill ads. Right. Or I'm like out hanging out with my friends, I'm like, oh, ads are probably doing well. And I come home and like one ad just lost me 5k and it's like, got them. We got a good connect Dawson. Do you all my rule formulas? Because I got about 20 of them. Nice, nice.
That's that's a tricky one there. Okay. So scaling man with the budgets you have, I imagine this next segment is going to be epic here. So of course, you know what the name of the podcast, we love to meet the cross marketing kind of more the financial side of things. So what kind of financial tips or principles do you kind of live by? You can kind of share with your audience, whether it's personal or business related. Okay. Um, yeah, I'll just kind of give you a little bit of a background like in my early days. So as an earlier advertiser, uh, just getting into Facebook ads, I had very little capital, like most people. And then I ran into capital issues when scaling, like at first I found a winning ad, winning creative offer, all the combinations were good. And then I w I was scaling super hard and then I ran out of funds.
So I have to stop my ads, which sucked because it messed up the optimization. They just stopped spending. Cause everything, all my cards were maxed out. Um, and then I was running on my personal cards at this point. So, uh, to increase my spending capability, um, I started getting credit business, credit cards, um, Amex, and then it's like a small tip for Amex. Some people think that if you don't have a business, like an LLC, your S Corp, you can't get an Amex business, but if you just called them over the phone, um, you can actually kind of in a sense, lie about that info and say, yes, I already have a business. And then you just tell them like, oh, you're spending 200 K a day or like a hundred K day. I quote them some absurd number back then. So they're like, oh, this must be a big player.
I'm just going to open it for them. And they, and I know like, uh, and they never asked me for an EIN number for my company. They just approved me and they just sent me the, a business card and that's how I got approved. Um, so that's a tip. And then sometimes when you call the rep, like be nice to them and try to talk to him, sometimes they'll be like, oh, we need an EIN number. We can't open it for you. This happened with a couple of the students that I worked with and just hang up the phone and just call back again, get another rep and just keep doing that. And you'll eventually get a rep. They'll just open it for you. Um,
Hands, hands. Aren't that difficult to get though?
Yay. It's not that hard, but I guess, I mean, I recently learned that you can get Yans without actually having a corporation. Like you don't need the articles of incorporation. You can just file for it. Yeah. Yeah. But Batman, I didn't even know
I need a card today.
I was like, I need this ASAP. And then, so that's one thing I did. So, and then once you get an Amex business card, it's super easy to increase the spend. Cause you just max it out, paid off. You just keep doing that really quickly. And then you eventually tell, uh, you mentioned tell Amex to increase your spending limit and they'll do it for you as long as you make your payments. And then another thing that helps this is specifically for affiliates. Um, [inaudible] helped me a lot, but once you start actually spending a lot, uh, they'll actually help you get on faster payouts. So instead of like three weeks or two weeks, they could get it done two a week, you know? So Eamon and Darcy is the person for that or just whoever your account manager is. How often,
Uh, how often do you have to go in and pay off your, your Amex?
Well, now I, I don't really have to pay it off. I pay it off maybe like once a week or something I could spend up to like 500. Sometimes I'll leave like a 500 K balance on there before actually paying it off. But like early on, you want to constantly do it. And this is another tip that I learned from a Amex rep. I ask a ton of questions like when I'm on the phone. So I learn everything about it. But one thing I learned is you also want to make bigger payments too. So actually making your payments less frequently is better in terms of getting your spending limit increased. Okay. So, um, for example, if your limit is 5k, uh, every time you spent two K, you don't want to pay it off, spend two K, pay it off, spate, spend it. You don't want to do that instead. You want to actually max it out to 5k the maximum limit. They allow you to do it, pay it off then. So the bigger payments you make, uh, they actually liked that more. And they'll approve you for higher spending, uh, more quickly because you actually look like you need the higher spend limit, right? If you're maxing out your cards every time, then they see that as, oh, this person needs a higher spend limit and they'll actually increase it faster for you.
Um, do you ever have to prepay, like what do you do on like holidays and weekends? Um, you just kind
Of know, I mean, amen. Amen. Service is like another good thing about them is I think they're 24 7. I've caught them late at night. Sometimes if I have any issues, you can make the bill payments. I've never had a or early on I've had my payments blocked, but that's because I reached a spending limit and that's because I literally didn't have the funds. So this actually, once I cut it really close, so I calculate everything on a spreadsheet. Exactly how much I need. And then, so I'll just say on Wednesday I was going to get paid like a hundred K check from Digi store, right. And sometimes that a hundred K wouldn't even hit my checking account, but I would pay off a hundred K I would pay off a hundred Cain, my Amex account, and just hope that the digit store a hundred K clears before Amex posted it out of my account. And I've done like pushed the limit a couple of times and then Amex sometimes, uh, declined it because they would actually try to pull it out of my account. And they'll say it's insufficient funds. You know, so earlier when I was scaling really fast, uh, that happened a few times, but they were cool with it. I just explained the situation and like Amex customer support is the best.
Speaker 6 (23:53):
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I'm going back to square one here, but with you scaling really fast across Facebook, do you have a foolproof way of kind of doing it just yet devil and budget's 20% increments. How are you getting to 50 to a hundred K a day? Maybe you're at 30 K right now, and it's going really good. And you want to spend 50 K how are you kind of taking us to that next level? Exactly. I think scaling slow. I think 20% is probably the best way to go. Um, especially if you're running affiliate offers, you could, you could scale faster for sure. And it also depends on how strong your ROI is. So if my ROI is not as good and I wouldn't scale as aggressively, but if I have a super amazing creative copy, like everything's good and the ROI is solid, then I scaled really hard.
And then I jumped the budget up. So it depends on how strong, I guess, your performances. And then I scaled depending on that, because what if your ROI is not that good? You don't want to scale hard because ROI does tend to go down as you scale. And it's about kind of just doing the calculations and finding the sweet spot. So what I actually do, um, to calculate is just say, just say like at 12, 12:00 PM, my total profit is 10 K, but then by 12:00 AM, if I spend it for another hour, my profit is still 10 K, but my revenue went up a lot. Like there's no point of keeping it run the rest of the day or just scaling it so much. I would just find that sweet spot where your, uh, I guess your profit, your actual absolute value in terms of profit as the highest and go for there.
That makes sense. I'm not sure if that makes sense. Cause at a certain point of scale, you actually start to make less money. Oh yeah. So yeah, you don't want, you don't want to outscale yourself. Like it's like you're, you're scaling. Like if sometimes I'll be making like, just say 50 K a day in profit, right. And then I'll scale really big. My numbers would look big, but then I look back at mine chart and I actually did only, you know, 40 K profit. And it's like, what the hell happened? Right. And if that's the case and I would scale back a little bit actually. So it goes up and down. And then, so this around 50 K is kind of the sweet spot that I found works really well, man. Yeah. And I was even looking at that, Medicore some of those offers and I was just going through them and man, these products have an 869 marked out for 1 27.
I'm like, dude, that's crazy. Yeah. It's crazy metaphors then of course something, their upsells are pretty legendary too. I got to go through it now. Oh God. Well, yeah, we actually scaled their old offers. So their old offer was, uh, leopard talks. Um, yeah, I did a couple minutes to let the talks to that was the same person that made Medicore. So I actually already had a really good relationship with them and that's the only reason why I decided to come over to digits or with them because I just, I like the owner of Medicore like, he's cool. And then obviously the offer kills. So of course I'm going to work with them.
Wow man. Amazing James, you killed it. Thank you so much, man. For just like sharing all the goods. Oh yeah. Super detail oriented on, on everything. Yeah.
And I did have like one more thing. This will help like manage finances and actually help your ROI. This is for, it's kind of everyone. And it's just having like a simple spreadsheet that tracks all your ad, spend initial sales, upsells, um, obviously your product costs and then, uh, refund rates, uh, try and get like an average refund rate. And then once you get all of that data, like in the beginning, when you don't have data, it's kind of hard to tell, but once you start getting data, you could actually start to calculate what your exact cost per purchases you need, uh, before you start breaking even. And then from there, it gets much easier to calculate ROI and things like that. And the reason why it's important to refund rates is our refunds will actually kick in later. So you might think you're doing 30, 40% margins right now, but you're not including like the 10% refund rates.
And then I know a lot of affiliates don't really calculate that in. So when they scale quickly and then their sales go down, right. So they're maybe doing like 20 K a day. And then now later on whatever, for whatever reason, maybe their ad accounts got shut down, they're doing like a thousand a day. They're getting hit with like 500 to a thousand dollar refunds a day. Right. So, so just be aware of that. Um, yeah. That's super legit. Yeah. And Hey, in order to get those numbers, you got to spend some money. Hell yeah.
I love it. Well, James, how can people get in touch?
Um, I mean, I G is pretty good, but maybe not IgE actually kind of a lot of responses on there. Skype is a good one, but also my Skype chats pretty failed. You just got it. You got to reach out, you got to reach out to him on human we'll connect you to me and then she will, she'll vet you out.
I love it. That's awesome. And what are you excited about next? What's next
For you? Honestly just affiliate marketing. I'm trying to learn how to scale this thing even more. So I'm just taking a lot of courses for like Facebook ads. I'm trying to get a little bit better with, because I feel like as of this point in terms of creatives and copies, I kind of know exactly how to make really good, uh, creatives and then copy. I'm starting to learn how to do some copywriting myself so I can make more, even better copies. And then, um, just Facebook ad skills to just Facebook optimizations, starting to look into CBO a little bit. I know timbered has a lot of really good stuff with that kind of like Facebook ad optimization, the Pesh. I know that the PEs just dropped the CBO. So I bought his course learning. So just kinda just kinda just be a better Facebook advertiser, honestly. That's it. Well, James we'll chat. We'll do some trading roles, some affiliates. We'll get you set up, man. I got some good stuff for ya. Nice.
I love it. All right, man. Thank you so much, James.
All right. Thank you guys for having me.
Speaker 6 (30:57):
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Jason Hornung is the founder and Creative Director at JH Media LLC, the world’s #1 direct response advertising agency focusing exclusively on the Facebook ads platform. Jason’s proprietary methods for ad creation, audience selection and scaling are responsible for producing $20 million + of profitable sales for his clients EVERY YEAR