Featured in Entrepreneur, Fox News, Newsweek and many others, I’m a serial entrepreneur & traffic generation specialist who’s helped over 150 brands scale to 7-8-9 figures in sales per month. I run a large Pinterest Ads/SEO/Traffic Generation community, 2 digital marketing Agencies called Pins 4 Profit and Launch Mastery Marketing, am a private equity investor in ecom brands, software developer and speak and consult all over the world!
We set up a bunch of ads somehow managed to spend about $10,000 in like three days and the pixel wasn't working. And I, and so they got like, no sales, no conversions, no nothing. And they called me and they're like, um, yeah. So our $10,000 that you just spent yesterday and in the beginning, I was like, Oh my God. So now, um, we only run like tiny little small tests first, make sure everything's running and then get the conversions. And that was another thing that I did was I hired an entire internal development team. Pinterest is a pain in the to track attribute all of that stuff. So we literally wrote code, invented the solutions, create all these custom bad-ass reports
To the rich and poor ed podcast, where we break down the financial principles that rich advertisers are deploying today to turn advertising into profit and get tons of traffic to their websites without killing their cash. These advertisers agencies, affiliate brands are responsible for managing over a billion dollars a year in ad spend. You'll hear about what's working for them today. They're rich ads and we'll roast their Epic failures and crappy ads on the internet with poor ads. Let's get into it. All right, everybody, we're back in business with another episode of the rich dad, poor dad podcasts. I'm your host today. Dylan in the house knows Zach today. Sad face, but it's going to be a great one. So today we always talk about paid ads. It's a lot of Facebook, YouTube, Google, but today we have the queen of interest ads. She is a machine and I get my tips and tricks from her on the Pinterest side, even though I'm not great at it, but to hype it up a little bit more, our guest has been featured in entrepreneur Fox news, Newsweek, and so many others.
She's a serial entrepreneur and traffic generation specialist. Who's helped over 150 brands scale to seven, eight, and nine figures in sales per month. She runs a large Pinterest ads, SEO traffic generation community to digital marketing agencies called ins for profit and launch mastery marketing. And she's also a private equity investor in econ brands, a software developer, and she speaks and consults all around the world. So while the hype is real, I'm personally pumped for this one, cause I don't know much about Penn CRS. So Lindsay, what's up. What is up? You make an amazing, I'm like, man, I am doing too many things at once. When I was reading that off, I was like, she is a busy video. It helps to have a great team. Right. How big is your team? Um, let's see. Well,
It depends on which side we have
15 on the Pinterest ad side, plus a bunch of part-time contractors and then the launch mastery side, I think there's probably 35 contractors. So it's a little bit of madness, but good. Oh my gosh. That's wild. We'll give everybody an idea of kind of what you're getting into. Just so they have some context from your point of
View. Yeah. So it's crazy. You, um, I did mergers and acquisitions for all these years and that's really how I got into digital marketing was just to try and validate offers as fast as possible. Uh, people were trying to get money, uh IPO's venture capital, all of that kind of stuff. Uh, I fell in love with SEO early on ran this huge SEO marketing agency and in the process got introduced to Pinterest as just organically, like six years ago on like man, all of our stuff is ranking on Pinterest. What is this about? And so I was an early adopter of the platform when they started launching their ads platform like three years ago. And ever since then, it seemed like just overnight, everybody was like, Hey, you know, all this stuff about Pinterest, like come and speak, come and teach us, come and explain the platform.
And so then all of a sudden it was like overnight. I was speaking at all these events and yes, hosting and doing all this crazy stuff for Pinterest ads because I love it. It's, it's amazing. It's unique. Everybody's trying to diversify ads, men, as you know, there's all kinds of stuff going on. So we focus mainly on e-commerce brands. Um, see better success there. There's still stuff you can do with leads, info products, all that kind of stuff. But it's a phenomenal top of funnel, high quality traffic generation strategy to add into your cross channel marketing ecosystem.
You say it's more for brands who are just getting started out, looking at test Pinterest, or is it more for the established brands? You already have a proof of concept to kind of more or less find a new channel for new customers essentially.
Yeah, I would say proof of concept is better. We've tried to help people who have brand new brands. Um, but because the buying cycle is longer, it's a totally different platform. It's delayed attribution. It's a planning platform. If I call it a pre-surgery engine, where before you go to Google, you're going to Pinterest to get inspiration for something. And then, so there are so 93% of searches on Pinterest are non-branded. So it's a huge opportunity for a new brand for top of funnel or, and, or it's a huge opportunity for an established brand who wants to open a new channel and get really cheap top of funnel traffic. So as long as you're in the women's, you know, type of niche, something that's serving women. Yeah. And
What do you all spend across all y'all's accounts on Pinterest
Every year? Uh, something like if I think I was calculating it earlier this week and it was around 14 million a month. Yeah. It's madness that's
Or a bigger spender isn't in being on Penn surf. That's even more exciting.
It's crazy. I feel like super blessed to like have the amazing clients and opportunities that we haven't, I will say not everyone has like their target KPI levels of success, but there's definitely a lot of room for growth. There's a lot of opportunity there.
Yeah. You were one of the, probably early adopters on the Pinterest side for the ads and you were kind of mentioning
Yep. Um, their ads platform came out. It's kind of like a, I would say three and a half or so years ago. So it's like baby Facebook all over again, mixed baby Google ads all over again. So it has that social media element plus that keyword research element. And so it's very unique and it takes a lot of, I feel like I have the unique skill set to understand it because I have done so much brand building from scratch, um, and trying to get those target key KPIs and all that kind of stuff. And so I understand that early, early development stage, so of the algorithm I should say. So, yeah. It's interesting.
Fairly new. Do you think it's going to be a big force to reckon with, you know, year over year?
I do absolutely. There, they just keep getting better this week. In fact, they launched a new CBO campaign for their traffic objectives, which is phenomenal. They're definitely about the customer service, which, you know, how hard we have to fight on Facebook for this. So it, they do have some really good unique offerings. And I think the more people that starts using the platform is going to be the biggest thing. Advertisers, I think are becoming more and more aware because I get hit up like all the time, um, for, you know, just information or learning more, Hey, are we a good fit or whatever? And so, yeah, it's definitely got some massive potential.
I'm going to have to dive back dad back into it, check the YouTube vids out.
There's not a lot of people that are doing it. Well, I'll say that. That's why even when I was learning, I was like, man, I still to this day, I don't know anyone that I would trust. I'm like, it's just a different animal. Did you speak
At a conference in the last six months online?
Yes. Any, yeah,
Because I want to say you had a course. It was like an hour, hour and a half or even at a speaking event. And that's, that's, that's what got me kind of on the Pinterest map in the past, like six months, like no joke. So I know you were a force to be reckoned with in this ground or as like she's the one that falls
I got really, really lucky because it's a blue ocean space. There's not really a lot of competition. Our agency just basically that side just blew up overnight because everyone needs it. And the more I got out into the world and started speaking, it was just like, man, I didn't realize, I guess I didn't realize how many people were seeking for new top of funnel strategies and all that kind of stuff.
Oh, for sure. Now talking strategies, let's go to the podcast now. Um, so of course, rich dad, poor. I'd love to dive into what's working. What's not working. So what's your rich ad. What's killing on Pinterest right now
That are killing. It are our beauty brands pretty much across the board. We have eyelash companies, we do haircare products and home decor brands are doing really good as well.
And what's your go-to strategy for those? Is it pretty similar across the board? You don't have to go into some undercover,
But hope sorry to interrupt. Yeah. So it depends on the number of skews. So I will say on Pinterest that their shopping campaigns are phenomenal. If you have a number of skews, it's the only place that you can do dynamic retargeting on Pinterest, which of course is amazing. We all need it, love it, want it. Um, and so that creates a really unique opportunity. It is like an open CBO campaign in some senses that you don't have to really necessarily nail down a super small interest group. It tends to perform on a lot of different interest groups, um, various different budgets. So I love those. If you have enough skews though, if you have only a few products, then yeah. We try and do some testing and then we go deeper funnel objectives, just like you would probably with Facebook.
That makes sense. What's been your biggest win lifetime on the Pinterest side.
So we have, for whatever reason, the Australian market in the last three months is killing it. Like we cannot run a bad ad in Australia right now. It's like insanity. I don't know what's going on if everyone's just home or what, but it doesn't matter across the board. Every brand is just killing it in Australia. So, um, I think what's happening is their algorithm is maturing and other countries because the biggest market initially was United States. Obviously, uh, we have a larger percentage of the population and their ad. It was US-based to start and all that kind of stuff. And then they opened up UK, Canada, a lot of European countries, Australia, New Zealand, all that kind of stuff. And it seems like they have just gotten a ton of new users in Australia. So pretty much everything we put up over there.
That makes sense. So when it comes to these beauty brands, here's sort of what kind of style of content you put out there? Is it makeup tutorials, Hey, check those, these new brows out. What's your go-to contents on. There is a pretty direct response. You are more of a content marketing approach.
Um, it is more content marketing. We do end up having to do a little bit more education. We beef up, we ask our clients to always beef up their product pages a little bit more so that they have more information. They seem more like a mix of a blog slash hero slash landings slash product page, kind of all in one, we have some parameters that we've seen consistently perform perform better, just higher conversion rates. So that makes a huge difference as far as on Pinterest like creatives and things. Typically I know most people say, Oh, video video, and that is true for Facebook. It's true for a lot of other platforms, but it's not necessarily true for Pinterest. We still see better performance on static images. So we just have some really great parameters that we've seen. We don't let our clients do any creatives, honestly, because we know a lot of it, get it done.
I, in the beginning of running our agency, I tried and I, you know, even with some of the larger brands that have huge creative teams and all this kind of stuff, and they have great images for other platforms, it just seemed like people were really struggling to change the content for the Pinterest platform or we'd be back and forth for months. And it just was wasting all this time to get their ads performing because it takes more time to warm up on there. So, um, we finally were like, forget it. We're just going to have non-negotiable all of our creative team is going to make everything. That's smart though. I mean, if, if you're the one moving the needle, you can feed it as much as you want in that case. And I'll have to, we don't have anybody else to rely on anybody else there.
So I'm into that now with those static images, you know, product shots, lifestyle shots, what are you seeing kind of, you know, work the best consistently more lifestyle top of funnel. And then if you have product shots, you can do those a little bit more. We try and mix in products with lifestyle. Um, but yeah, you can still do more product shots, like deeper funnel. But in general, we try and focus on the lifestyle because it is a lifestyle platform. It's why our platform people are on there for inspiration. They want to feel themselves in the total environment. So yes, absolutely lots of lifestyle. Oh, I believe that I'm an idea. Like we, we got a banana bread recipe on Pinterest, like last week. So that's the only time I use it. I feel like, I know that's why it's so underestimated because everyone's like, Oh, it's a wedding planning platform.
Or maybe it's an interior design thing or you get a few recipes, but it's amazing what you can do with some well-placed content on there. Oh yeah. I mean it, would you say it's very woman dominated for the actual audience on there. Yeah. They keep saying and trying to press, Oh, there's more men coming on there, which is true. But I would still say it's about 83, 84 to 5% women. I never use it unless Google takes me to there. I'm not going to go make a list on there. So my girlfriend loves it though.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
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So while we talk about what's working, I love to hear about the things that just, you thought would kill it, but they crashed burned a little bit. So, yeah. Okay. I'm going to tell you like the worst thing that ever happened when we very first were running a new client ad and the client's like we have a big budget, we want to try a bunch of things. So we set up a bunch of ads somehow manage to spend about $10,000 in like three days and the pixel wasn't working. And I, and so they got like, no sales, no conversions, no nothing. And they called me and they're like, um, yeah. So our $10,000 that you just spent yesterday and in the beginning, I was like, Oh my God. So now, um, we only run like tiny little small tests first, make sure everything's running and then get the conversions.
And that was another thing that I did was I hired an entire internal development team. Pinterest is a pain in the to track attribute all of that stuff. So we literally wrote code, invented the solutions, create all these custom bad-ass reports, all of this Google analytics stuff, because I realized I wasn't able to keep clients for very long. If you can't prove to them that you actually have like really good tracking. So I was like, forget it. We're hiring a development team. Hence the software development that started coming in, I was like, all right, we need this, we need this Facebook as this. We have nothing. What are we going to do? So that's one of the services that we include is ongoing development because you need it. You have to have it. I've literally worked with the best developers you can find. And not one of them came up with a full service Pinterest solution for us.
We had to like work together with teams, multiple teams, consultants to get a custom solution. So that that's a must have, and I will say, okay, so other poor ad video sales letters are terrible for Pinterest. Don't do it. Don't waste your money. I'm going to go all caps. No, no BSL. They hate it because it's all about trust and they want to get education. They want to see a brand and they want to support people. So no VSLs fans are tracking little budgeted VSLs so look, you ever had a media buyer accidentally add on an extra zero? Um, no. That, when you said that when we were talking earlier, that was the worst one was when we, where we spent $10,000 in one day. And it was like one of my very first clients, like five years ago on that side. And I was like, Oh my God, I had like a meltdown.
I felt so bad. Cause I love them so much. They were such amazing people. And I was super embarrassed. I'm like, well it does happen, but it shouldn't. But no thank God. I've never, I have amazing media buyers. We train them. So like kind of probably OCD stringent in the beginning. So they are checking and double checking. And I really only hire like super meticulous people with like data oriented and data driven backgrounds because of this attribution problem and because of the tech problem and the level of reporting and all that kind of stuff that we have to do in order to get good results. So
Speaker 4 (18:01):
With the reporting, have you had to find a way to evolve it with this new iOS 14 update and I'm sure that we're waiting for that one.
Yeah. Um, so everything that you're doing, if you're changing to a server-side API for your site, that's going to be tracking for Facebook that will work for Pinterest too. In general though, we haven't seen any bad results so far. Um, no lack of tracking. And if that is working, we don't use a lot of custom events in general. Uh, Pinterest is not super like data hungry in the sense of like tracking you a thousand clicks later and all that kind of stuff. Um, so we don't really have the same problems where we are seeing it as on external checkouts having to do with the MMP partners for app developers. That's really the only major player.
Speaker 4 (18:44):
Okay. That's interesting. Yeah. Cause I'm already all these new pixel setups and I'm just like paying verify verification of domains. And I'm just like, I'm over at this right now.
Yeah. Noxious. But if you have a great development team, that's doing it. That's awesome. It'll work for us.
Speaker 4 (19:00):
Are, are they US-based or are they not in the U S
For our development team?
Speaker 4 (19:07):
Have you found when it comes to kind of the hiring side and there's great talent out there? I mean, I've supplied the Romanian. They, they, they freaking kill it. So I'm pretty curious. Would you rather get somebody in the States or outsource them outside of the States just depends on what your situation is?
It depends. Um, for whatever reason. So my, my business partner's from Ukraine. And so she already has like a massive network of people that she's ended up. And she's really, she kind of does more of like the operations management of the sense of human resources and managing our teams and, and all of that kind of stuff. And so she's done most of the hiring and she already hadn't, her husband was a big wig at Shopify Shopify for a lot of years. So she already had like, um, a lot of relationships built over the years. And so we got a lot of great designers and stuff that are in Ukraine, which is funny, but yeah, and then I have a lot of us team. We have some Philippines, um, folks that are doing just, um, various data entry. We have a lot of influencer outreach, so they do a lot of our influencer outreach and just the day-to-day type stuff, but all over Europe,
Speaker 4 (20:10):
I could see that I've been here to be growing the influencer side. Hardcore. I'm just kidding. I don't know. I've really created that over the last, like six or seven months with Tik TOK, Snapchat, it just works better.
It's different on Pinterest in the sense of, it's not like you send a bunch of products, take a bunch of pictures. Cause user generated content doesn't do as well on there. So it needs to be more like of a professional shot, which is ironic. Considering a lot of our ads that perform better are not the like perfectly designed ones, but the organic content that lasts forever is beautifully designed and beautifully lifestyle, you know, made. So it's, it's just interesting.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
That is I can see it from the pincer S angles where, Hey, they have the authority look at the shot, looked at actual to wear versus somebody doing it in their closet. Yeah. That makes total sense. That's cool. Well, when it comes to the podcast, we're back on that same page, you know, it's very similar to a book name. So we love to find the crossroads and marketing the financial side of things. So what kind of financial tip or principle can you share with the audience based off your expertise?
Yeah. I mean, there's a few things. One, I would say save money because you are going to need it for legal fees, whether you like it or not
Speaker 4 (21:23):
Like what legal fees would you w would you think that pop up there? Yeah.
You know, it's so random. I've had so many weird, random things. If you're developing new products, then you definitely need to have attorneys reviewing stuff for us doing contracts. I think that's been the hardest craziest part is with agency making sure that your contract is actually going to cover and people are going to honor that it seems like, you know, when we had COVID and all this other kind of stuff, there were a lot of things that happened in a lot of leniency that had to happen. And there were a lot of people that unfortunately tried to kind of just take advantage. So we had to have selections. We had to have all kinds of these horrible things that I didn't want to think about didn't want to do. Um, yeah. So I didn't realize I needed to have, like, you know, I've always been, I used to do like a lot of patent litigation, all that kind of stuff.
When I was doing mergers and acquisition. So I can write great contracts, which is a gift, but having someone at the baseline, at least review everything that you're doing is important. It's more important than you realize. If somebody comes back and tries to say something, thankfully we have very high quality clients for the most part, but sometimes people get into weird situations and sometimes money makes people do weird things, as I'm sure you're aware. So with agency life, it's a little different. You definitely have to have it. And then if you're scaling a larger product or creating patents, I'm always working with trademark stuff. I'm sure that we have, especially in the software space and all that kind of stuff, making sure that we have as much protected as you can. So people are not always ripping off your stuff. And especially if you're creating digital products, I'm sure you guys know the info product space is crazy.
So I've had a lot of very weird things, but I take it as a grain of salt that I can educate guys. I do do a lot of coaching and, and things like that for young e-commerce brands. Cause I love it. I enjoy it. It's something that people need. And so I always tell them, like, at least have your contracts clear, you need to have your terms of service clear. You need to have all this stuff clear. So you get less charged backs. That's a huge thing. So, and it can take, take down a company if you don't have an, the other thing I will say is get many payment processors. Like if you are trying to, um, if you're scaling your e-commerce brand, it's inevitable, you're going to have refunds. You're going to have returns. You're going to have people claiming all of weird crap.
So you need to have good solid contracts. You need to have good, solid click through contracts, all this kind of stuff to protect yourself. And then invest. When you start getting meat on your bones and your brand, then you should start investing, figuring out, you know, what is going to be your I'm a super high risk tolerance. So I like growth stocks and I do short-term trading. Not everyone does that's okay. A lot of people like mutual funds, you don't have time or whatever. So, um, find something though that you can invest in. That's going to be creating some longer-term wealth. So you're not always stuck in the day to day and it can be anything. Some people love real estate. I hate real estate. My husband loves it. I don't want to do it. I never ever want to see a renter ever. Don't talk to me, don't call me.
I'm not fixing your crap, but some people love real estate, you know, that kind of stuff. So I think we all have different tolerances. So my advice is like start early, figuring out how to financially plan, get yourself a trust, make sure that your, your agreements are in place. That you're incorporated, that you're protecting yourself as a corporate structure, because if you ever get sued or anything ever happens, you need to be able to protect yourself. And we've, we're starting like five Oh one, three C's. And there's a lot of things. Cause, um, my husband and I do a lot of ministry stuff. And so we have a lot of stuff that we're giving back and all this kind of stuff. So make sure that you have a good financial planner that can help you structure your trust and protect yourself and set things up for your family. Because we all know that as much as we love America, there's a lot of people suing each other for random stupid crap. So you need to be prepared for the worst case scenario. And I never thought I would have to say that until something crazy happened to me. So I just recommend go the extra mile. It's way more worth it for you to get a foundational structure in the beginning than it is to have to come back later, realize what all you missed and spend a fortune in legal bills.
Speaker 4 (25:44):
I liked that we haven't had anybody to sit on the legal side of things. I think that's huge. We had somebody chat on the R and D research and design on tax credits and whatnot. It goes back seven years. And that was really interesting too, but this is a first of its kind here. Now I had a question. I'm trying to think what was it? It wasn't scaling. Ugh, my gosh.
Deep down on 900 topics. Yeah,
Speaker 4 (26:11):
That was a good amount. Okay. Investments, you're talking about, you know, some choose for investments. What, what are your, what's your thought process process on just investing in yourself? You know, w when did you start doing that? Do you still do it? And what are some of your, you know, maybe three favorite things that you like to do, invest in yourself to kind of make sure you're staying on top of the game and you know, up with the curve essentially.
No, my always, it's so funny. I've done all these masterminds all these years and everyone's like, create your vision board and whatever my goal is always like, I want to go away for a week a year and get every type spa and health treatment so that I feel like a superhuman. That's always, my goal is like, I want to equally, and I want to feel good. I want to exercise. Cause it's hard when you're running a bunch of stuff and you have a lot of life goals and you're a high performer. It is hard. Sometimes you get in, I used to be a fitness model. And so I was like prioritizing health and wellness all these years. And it's something of a high personal value for me. And the older you get and the more responsibilities that you get, it's a lot harder to make it a priority and things come up and you have emotional stuff and you have family stuff and you have all of these people that rely on you.
And it's a lot of stress. So I really highly advised, like doing meditation techniques doing like for me, it's, it's the spiritual side. Like we have a Bible study at our house. Every Thursday I have to just get in the presence of God and rest and learn how to rest and trust that he knows he has what's best for me and that I'm going to be okay. And that he didn't, you know, give me a design that is not going to be actualized because I am walking towards it. And I am partnered with him and things are moving forward and focusing on the wins. Um, I think also as a high performer type, a personality where like we can critique ourselves to death and figure out every little thing we did wrong and point focus on a point out every little thing that went wrong or whatever.
And it's like, at some point you really have to learn to rest. Okay. This was a learning experience. And I tell myself now it's like, if I make a mistake or if I have a failure, that failure is going to pay me for the rest of my life and it's going to be taken forward for all the kids that I coach and everyone that's learning how to do. E-com they're going to learn from the very beginning. Don't make these mistakes that I made. And that's the fastest way for them to have success is have a great mentor. Who's been through it. Who can walk with you and tell you the pitfalls to avoid. And yeah. And so resting presence, learning how to be at peace in your mind, trusting your team hiring well so that you can delegate are critical. It's crucial. Otherwise you can't survive in this world, in the digital world.
Speaker 4 (28:51):
Yeah, my gosh, Lindsay, this has been fricking awesome. Um, what's the best way to support you? You know, how can people find you? Let's let's let's get you some plugs up there.
Awesome. So you can check me out. Uh, Lindsay share.com just first and last name, all of our Pinterest stuff. It is that pins, the number four profit.com and then launch mastery. marketing.com is our agency. And we've got all this stuff on there. Softwares SEO courses, all the done for you services. Lots of cool stuff.
Speaker 4 (29:21):
Y'all hit her up. She knows her stuff. Lindsay, thank you so much for coming on.
Awesome. Thank you so much for having me. And I just want to say as a word of encouragement to you, amazing entrepreneurs out there that you are amazing. You are strong, you're emotionally strong, you're fortified and just keep going. Even we all have crazy days, all have circumstances that are insane, that happened to us, but you're doing amazing. You made a choice to be on this entrepreneurial journey and that's for a reason. So don't give up.
Speaker 4 (29:55):
Thanks so much
Speaker 3 (29:56):
For listening to another episode of the rich ad pour at podcast. If you're like me and listen to podcasts on the go, go ahead and subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, and rich ed [inaudible] dot com slash podcast. And if you absolutely love the show, go ahead and leave a review and a comment share with a friend. If you do take a copy screenshot of it, email me firstname.lastname@example.org. Show me you left a review and I'll give you a free copy of the rich add or add book to learn more about the book. Go to rich ed for.com to leave a review that a rich ed or ed.com/review. Thanks
Speaker 4 (30:30):
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Jason Hornung is the founder and Creative Director at JH Media LLC, the world’s #1 direct response advertising agency focusing exclusively on the Facebook ads platform. Jason’s proprietary methods for ad creation, audience selection and scaling are responsible for producing $20 million + of profitable sales for his clients EVERY YEAR